Pope Francis tells 60 Minutes in rare interview: “the globalization of indifference is a really ugly disease”

Francis is the primary pope from the Americas, the primary of his name, and greater than every other pope in recent memory, has dedicated his life and ministry to the poor, the peripheral, and the forgotten. All while leading the Catholic Church on difficult, sometimes controversial issues that not everyone supports. We were granted a rare interview on the Vatican, and spoke to him, in his native Spanish, through a translator, for greater than an hour. Not lost in translation was the 87 12 months old’s warmth, intelligence and conviction. We began by discussing the Church’s first World Children’s Day. Next weekend, Pope Francis will welcome tens of 1000’s of young people to the Vatican, including refugees of war.

Norah O’Donnell: During World Children’s Day, the U.N. says over one million people can be facing famine in Gaza, lots of them children. 

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): Not just in Gaza. Think of Ukraine. Many kids from Ukraine come here. You know something? That those children do not know tips on how to smile? I’ll say something to them (mimics smile)… they’ve forgotten tips on how to smile. And that could be very painful.

Norah O’Donnell: Do you’ve gotten a message for Vladimir Putin relating to Ukraine?

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): Please, warring countries, all of them, stop. Stop the war. You must discover a way of negotiating for peace. Strive for peace. A negotiated peace is at all times higher than an limitless war. 

Norah O’Donnell: What’s happening– in Israel and Gaza, has caused a lot division, a lot pain world wide. I do not know for those who’ve seen within the United States, big protests on college campuses and growing antisemitism. What would you say about tips on how to change that?

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): All ideology is bad, and antisemitism is an ideology, and it’s bad. Any “anti” is at all times bad. You can criticize one government or one other, the federal government of Israel, the Palestinian government. You can criticize all you would like, but not “anti” a people. Neither anti-Palestinian nor antisemitic. No.

Norah O’Donnell: I do know you call for peace. You have called for a cease-fire in lots of your sermons. Can you help negotiate peace?

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): (sighs) What I can do is pray. I pray rather a lot for peace. And also, to suggest, “Please, stop. Negotiate.”

Prayer has been at the middle of the pope’s life since he was born Jorge Mario Bergoglio in Argentina, in 1936, right into a family of Italian immigrants. Before entering the seminary, Bergoglio worked as a chemist.

His own personal formula is simplicity. He still wears the plain silver cross he wore because the archbishop of Buenos Aires. Though it is not what Francis wears, but where he lives that set the tone for his papacy, 11 years ago.  

Instead of a palace above St. Peter’s Square, he selected the Vatican guest house Casa Santa Marta as his home. 

We met him there under a painting of the Virgin Mary. Surrounded by the sacred, Francis has not forsaken his humorousness, even when discussing serious subjects, just like the migrant crisis.

Norah O’Donnell: My grandparents were Catholic. Immigrated from Northern Ireland within the Thirties to the United States, in search of a greater life. And I do know your loved ones, too, fled fascism. And you’ve gotten talked about with migrants, lots of them children, that you just encourage governments to construct bridges, not partitions.

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): Migration is something that makes a rustic grow. They say that you just Irish migrated and brought the whiskey, and that the Italians migrated and brought the mafia… (laugh) It’s a joke. Don’t take it badly. But, migrants sometimes suffer rather a lot. They suffer rather a lot.

Norah O’Donnell: I grew up in Texas, and I do not know for those who’ve heard, however the state of Texas is attempting to shut down a Catholic charity on the border with Mexico that provides undocumented migrants humanitarian assistance. What do you’re thinking that of that?

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): That is madness. Sheer madness. To close the border and leave them there, that’s madness. The migrant needs to be received. Thereafter you see how you will take care of him. Maybe you’ve gotten to send him back, I do not know, but each case must be considered humanely. Right? 

A couple of months after becoming pope, Francis went to a small Italian island near Africa, to satisfy migrants fleeing poverty and war.

Norah O’Donnell: Your first trip as Pope was the Island of Lampedusa, where you talked about suffering. And I used to be so struck while you talked in regards to the globalization of indifference. What is occurring? 

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): Do you would like me to state it plainly? People wash their hands! There are so many Pontius Pilates on the loose on the market… who see what is occurring, the wars, the injustice, the crimes… “That’s OK, that is OK” and wash their hands. It’s indifference. That is what happens when the center hardens… and becomes indifferent. Please, we now have to get our hearts to feel again. We cannot remain indifferent within the face of such human dramas. The globalization of indifference is a really ugly disease. Very ugly.

Pope Francis has not been indifferent to the Church’s most insidious scandal– the rampant sexual abuse of lots of of 1000’s of kids worldwide, for a long time.  

Norah O’Donnell: You have done greater than anyone to attempt to reform the Catholic Church and repent for years of unspeakable sexual abuse against children by members of the clergy. But has the church done enough?

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): It must proceed to do more. Unfortunately, the tragedy of the abuses is gigantic. And against this, an upright conscience and never only to not permit it but to place in place the conditions in order that it doesn’t occur.

Norah O’Donnell: You have said zero tolerance.

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): It can’t be tolerated. When there may be a case of a spiritual man or woman who abuses, the complete force of the law falls upon them. In this there was an ideal deal of progress.

It’s Francis’ capability for forgiveness and openness that has defined his leadership of the Church’s nearly 1.4 billion Catholics. He put them and the world on notice, during an impromptu press conference on a plane in 2013, when he spoke with reference to homosexuality.

“If someone is gay,” he said, “and he searches for the Lord and has good will…who am I to guage?” 

… and he didn’t stop there.

Norah O’Donnell: Last 12 months you made the choice to permit Catholic priests to bless same-sex couples. That’s an enormous change. Why?

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): No, what I allowed was to not bless the union. That can’t be done because that shouldn’t be the sacrament. I cannot. The Lord made it that way. But to bless all and sundry, yes. The blessing is for everybody. For everyone. To bless a homosexual-type union, nonetheless, goes against the given right, against the law of the Church. But to bless all and sundry, why not? The blessing is for all. Some people were scandalized by this. But why? Everyone! Everyone!

Norah O’Donnell: You have said, “Who am I to guage?” “Homosexuality shouldn’t be against the law.”

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): No. It is a human fact. 

Norah O’Donnell: There are conservative bishops within the United States that oppose your latest efforts to revisit teachings and traditions. How do you address their criticism?

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): You used an adjective, “conservative.” That is, conservative is one who clings to something and doesn’t wish to see beyond that. It is a suicidal attitude. Because one thing is to take tradition under consideration, to think about situations from the past, but quite one other is to be closed up inside a dogmatic box. 

Pope Francis has placed more women in positions of power than any of his predecessors, but he told us he opposes allowing women to be ordained as priests or deacons.

Francis’ devotion to traditional doctrine led one Vatican reporter to notice that he’s modified the tune of the Church, however the lyrics essentially remain the identical. This frustrates those that wish to see him change policy on Roman Catholic priests marrying; contraception, and surrogate motherhood.  

Norah O’Donnell: I do know women who’re cancer survivors who cannot bear children, they usually turn to surrogacy. This is against church doctrine.

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): In regard to surrogate motherhood, within the strictest sense of the term, no, it shouldn’t be authorized. Sometimes surrogacy has turn into a business, and that could be very bad. It could be very bad.

Norah O’Donnell: But sometimes for some women it’s the only hope.

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): It may very well be. The other hope is adoption. I’d say that in each case the situation must be fastidiously and clearly considered, consulting medically after which morally as well. I feel there may be a general rule in these cases, but you’ve gotten to enter each case specifically to evaluate the situation, so long as the moral principle shouldn’t be skirted. But you might be right. I need to inform you that I actually liked your expression while you told me, “In some cases it’s the only likelihood.” It shows that you’re feeling this stuff very deeply. Thank you. (smiles)

Norah O’Donnell: I feel that is why so many people– have found hope with you, because you’ve gotten been more open and accepting perhaps than other previous leaders of the church.

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): You need to be open to every part. The Church is like that: Everyone, everyone, everyone. “That so-and-so is a sinner…?” Me too, I’m a sinner. Everyone! The Gospel is for everybody. If the Church places a customs officer on the door, that is not any longer the church of Christ. Everyone.

Norah O’Donnell: When you take a look at the world what gives you hope?

Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): Everything. You see tragedies, but you furthermore may see so many beautiful things. You see heroic moms, heroic men, men who’ve hopes and dreams, women who look to the longer term. That gives me loads of hope. People wish to live. People forge ahead. And persons are fundamentally good. We are all fundamentally good. Yes, there are some rogues and sinners, but the center itself is nice. 

Produced by Keith Sharman, Julie Morse and Anna Matranga. Associate producer, Roxanne Feitel. Broadcast associates, Eliza Costas and Callie Teitelbaum. Edited by Jorge J. García.

Pope Francis sits down for a historic interview with CBS Evening News anchor and managing editor Norah O’Donnell in an hour-long special airing Monday, May 20 at 10 p.m. ET on CBS and streaming on Paramount+. In a wide-ranging conversation, Francis speaks about countries at war, his vision for the Catholic Church, his legacy, his hope for youngsters and more.